[scribus] ! ;-)

[Louis Desjardins]

JLuc a écrit :
> Christoph Schäfer a écrit :
>>> Specialy when there is no elaborate word (& character) styles
>>> import abilities in Scribus.
>> What are word styles? Scribus 1.3.3.x has paragraph styles and imports 
>> them from ODT, SXW and HTML and, of course, its own files. Scribus 
>> 1.3.5 has character styles, so could you be more specific about its 
>> alleged shortcomings, please?
> 
> I have great hopes toward future versions,
> and that is why i keep informed and try each new version.
> 
> However I am afraid the 1.3.5 wont fit my needs
> (I was once said that only the 1.3.6 would have the
> "through linked-text-frames selection actions" bug corrected).
> 
>>> Generaly writing, not understating the problems and weaknesses
>>> would help commmunicate with the crew though.
> 
>> you always join the list when someone asks if he should use the 
>> program and tell all readers that it's completely 
> useless for you and that it's utter crap anyway.

Isn’t there a tiny bit of dramatisation here? A quick review of the 
archive reveals that the poster has been quite openly participating to 
discussions, providing some useful hints, comments, and even offering 
his help to contribute to the wiki. All this with a friendly tone. At 
least, it sounded like that to me. The expression "utter crap" itself 
was not his choice of words either. I am not too sure whether this way 
of "summarizing" one’s thoughts is at all constructive. I am only 
questionning here.

> It would certainly help 
> if you could be more constructive/specific or even help fixing issues, 
> since you claim to have C++ experience. Sending your ceterum censeo to 
> this list again and again is a waste of time, and it _does_ _not_ help.
> 
> When somebody asks about usability I share my experience...
> and all the more if such an expression is usually rejected ! :-(
> 
> (PS : words such as "utter crap" might contribute to the so-said 
> "snottyness" feeling
> of the list.)
> 
>> Given the millions of downloads of Scribus, mostly positive reviews in 
>> magazines and many succesfully completed projects, your behaviour 
>> reminds me of a driver who hears a warning about a wrong-way driver on 
>> a motorway and says "Only one? There are hundreds of them" ;)

Scribus has been downloaded 1 436 930 times, as of today (according to 
the Sourceforge website).
http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/detail.php?group_id=125235&ugn=scribus&type=prdownload&mode=alltime&package_id=0

Plus, we have this interesting blog entry from mrdocs:
http://rants.scribus.net/2008/01/12/when-a-million-does-not-equal-a-million/

The truth is there are still very few (is there even one?) large Linux 
magazine that use Scribus as a layout program. There must be good 
reasons for this and it would be useful to find out why. An overall 
reason is Scribus is still a buiding site. Is it unfair, hurtful or 
offensive to say this? Is it reasonable to think Scribus is not ready 
for everybody to use? I personnaly think that in some demanding DTP 
environment, Scribus is simply not ready for everyday use. Is there 
something wrong asserting this? Insn’t that what the poster is letting 
others know?
> 
> Except the unsatisfied : they dont subscribe to the list :-(
> 
> I could also follow their example.
> I could quietly wait for the 1.3.6 or some later version
> hoping the programmers will in some mysterious way
> correct the supposed-not-to-exist bugs
> and scribus become nice and friendly usable.

Jluc, don’t be shy to express your views. There are things that don’t 
work and it is useless to pretend they work while they don’t. I am a 
professionnal in the graphic art industry and I look at the Scribus 
project with very optimistic eyes. I am all for it. Nonetheless, I don’t 
use it in my office, yet. There are serious showstoppers such as the 
ones you have pointed in previous emails. There are some others, not 
always obvious to pin down or to identify as showstoppers until you hit 
the wall. And suggesting solutions is not as easy as it seems either.

So, depending on what people intend to use it for, I would suggest, or 
not, just as you do, to use Scribus or not. On the other hand, I am 
reluctant to throw the towel easily because there are nice workarounds 
to make Scribus pretty usable in some environments. But not in all 
circumstances. This all depends really on your point of view, your 
experience, what you need to accomplish and the time you have, your 
willingness to test, your resistance to change, among other reasons.

At the same time, I would suggest you continue your testings with your 
real world documents and in your specific workflow and needs. You can 
then come up with even more judicious comments and hopefully this will 
help a lot. That is the clear way to improve Scribus. I would also 
suggest that, when possible, you describe the type of work or the 
environment itself, so we have a better sense of what you want to 
achieve, and why you can’t achieve it currently with Scribus.

All that said, I trust that it is really up to the user to determine if 
Scribus is the right tool for a given task. People who take the time to 
answer can help with workarounds or give some tips. But in the end, the 
last word is of course to the user. I wonder how it could be otherwise?

As a project supporter and believer — please note I am only speaking for 
myself here — I trust we can easily deal with a couple of "dry" comments 
that may sound not too constructive at first sight but that may well be, 
on second thought. I have no issue with such criticisims. I don’t feel I 
am under threat and I trust (hope?) that none of the developers feel 
like that. I trust the project and the contributors to be mature and 
strong enough to resist some windy days. I personnally have no issue 
with someone coming here and telling that "from his experience" Scribus 
is not usable! Although with more information on why it is said to be 
not usable we could maybe find ways to make it more usable as it is 
(maybe it’s only a matter of helping to develop some particular user 
skills or exploring unknown features) or it could lead to a better 
understanding of the needs of a particular bunch of users. The readers 
of this list can make their own decision on whether Scribus is usable 
for them or not, based on their experience and on the experience of 
others, and they can also test for themselves.

I am sorry for the people who expressed their concerns about this 
particular post but frankly, I find not much to get excited here.

Louis

> 
> JL