<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2010/11/30 Craig Bradney <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cbradney@scribus.info">cbradney@scribus.info</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br><br><div><br></div></div><div><br>On 30/11/2010, at 3:07 PM, Louis Desjardins <<a href="mailto:louis.desjardins@gmail.com" target="_blank">louis.desjardins@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>2010/11/30 "Christoph Schäfer" <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:christoph-schaefer@gmx.de" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:christoph-schaefer@gmx.de" target="_blank">christoph-schaefer@gmx.de</a>></span><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Am Montag, 29. November 2010, 10:14:53 schrieb Louis Desjardins:<br>
<div><div></div><div>> 2010/11/29 Gregory Pittman <<a href="mailto:gpittman@iglou.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:gpittman@iglou.com" target="_blank">gpittman@iglou.com</a>><br>
><br>
> > On 11/28/2010 10:23 PM, Louis Desjardins wrote:<br>
> >> 2010/11/28 Gregory Pittman <<a href="mailto:gpittman@iglou.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:gpittman@iglou.com" target="_blank">gpittman@iglou.com</a><br>
> >> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gpittman@iglou.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:gpittman@iglou.com" target="_blank">gpittman@iglou.com</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> I think that when we get some translators on board for the docs,<br>
> >> the<br>
> >> screenshots aren't so hard to do. If we knew we had them, I<br>
> >> could be<br>
> >> making dialog screenshots in various languages as I go...<br>
> >><br>
> >> Good evening Greg,<br>
> >><br>
> >> The issue here is to have material readily available to whoever wants<br>
> >> to<br>
> >> translate any part of the documentation without even having to ask for<br>
> >> it.<br>
> ><br>
> > I disagree. The issue is getting translators on board actually working<br>
> > on<br>
> > the translations. The raw material they need is present in the 1.3.9svn<br>
> > version of Scribus. Witness our Italian friend Alevati feverishly<br>
> > working on Italian translations for the wiki pages, and it doesn't seem<br>
> > he is inhibited by the use of English-language screenshots.<br>
><br>
> I guess this mostly depends on the skills of the translator. I am still on<br>
> the opinion that if we’d have an automated way of outputting those<br>
> screenshots, it would be helpful. Mind you, we don’t need to run the script<br>
> all the time. But from time to time, when for instance a stable version is<br>
> released, then we can produce the screenshots for all.<br>
><br>
> > One of the big problems we had with the printed manual was getting<br>
> > output<br>
> > from those who told us they would contribute. I can step in and begin<br>
> > making screenshots showing the content pertinent to the text, in<br>
> > whatever language. It may be that some translators won't mind or would<br>
> > prefer to make their own.<br>
> ><br>
> > There is not quite so much work as it would seem, since there is still<br>
> > quite a bit of content that Christoph and I agree is quite out of date,<br>
> > and wrong to varying degrees, with screenshots that make little sense<br>
> > in the context of current Scribus versions.<br>
><br>
> I am not talking about wrong or outdated content but I am looking ahead to<br>
> see how we could improve the translation of the doc. To me, it is *not* a<br>
> success so far. We have outdated French translation, and I don’t know the<br>
> status for German. Do we have other translations for the doc? Now I am happy<br>
> to read we’re going to have an Italian version. We have 49 languages in the<br>
> GUI list. When we call up the online help, we are sent to:<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://docs.scribus.net/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://docs.scribus.net/" target="_blank">http://docs.scribus.net/</a><br>
><br>
> where we have currently 3 languages. This is short, don’t you think ?<br>
><br>
> The screenshots of this doc seem outdated for most of what I see after a<br>
> quick overview — however much of this information is still valuable as the<br>
> program has evolved but we are still in DTP... and the basic principles are<br>
> covered. Anyway, this needs to be updated too.<br>
><br>
> If the doc was available for translation as a wikipedia article for<br>
> instance, and we could merge automatically — when the developers think it is<br>
> time to do it — the screenshots, then I think we could see more action on<br>
> the translation front.<br>
><br>
> Do you know how many screenshots we have in the Manual ?<br>
><br>
> Of course, don't get me wrong, I don’t think it is only a matter of<br>
> screenshots... of course.<br>
><br>
> I am looking for a solution. To me, one book in English and online help in 2<br>
> more languages is a signal that something needs to be improved. I don’t say<br>
> my solution is the best but I think it’s worth digging a bit in that<br>
> direction. Only showing the work is already started can convince someone to<br>
> step in and give a hand.<br>
<br>
</div></div>I think we need to put this into perspective. We're talking about the Online Help here. This means that not all screenshots need to be redone for a translation, as only some of them are language/UI-specific.</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>Most if not all dialog show at least a few words. If we get a mix of languages in the dialog screenshots, it will look like unfinished work and to a lot of users it wil not be appealing. From the user perspective I don’t think this should even be in discussion.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Plus, since it's highly unlikely that a translator can work like a machine, the files will be translated one by one, and a translator can create a localised screenshot whenever it's necessary. In other words: there are no robo-translators, thus, no need for robo-screenshots.</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>The machine metaphor is certainly funny but it doesn’t help diminish the work. Doing screenshots does take time. All I am saying is let’s give a hand to translators, show them that we have cared enough to get the work started, we have a template, they can concentrate on the translation itself, they have the screenshots in their target language and thus the right terminology in front of them right at the start of the work. The work can also be more easily distributed if all the work is done online.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">And, as Greg already mentioned, we need human beings willing to do the work before we can start the creation of language-specific screenshots.</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>The way around. I think we have all the evidences that this doesn’t work. The numbers are clear. We have 3 languages out of 49. The doc has been in that language state for years as the GUI has evolved a lot faster. I was even surprised at the end of the count to be at 49! Wow! If so many people care about the GUI translation, I guess that we should understand the message. </div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> We simply do not know for how many languages there will be volunteers.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>So far, 49 languages.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> It may be possible to automate the creation of screenshots, but I doubt this is worth the efforts, as someone will have to write the code.</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>Again, not only a matter of screenshots. Putting all this in a wikipedia like access and already providing the frame will definitely help translators get started, even if they have very little time to spend. Again, distributed work is the key.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On the other hand, what would be really useful is a set of sample files that can be used across translations, to make sure that screenshots show the same content in all language versions. This set of files can be created when the update to the English version has been more or less completed.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Maybe you can explain what you have in mind here. I don’t get the idea.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers!</div><div><br></div><div>Louis </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Christoph<br>
<font color="#888888">--<br>
Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief!<br>
Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: <a href="http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail" target="_blank">http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail</a><br>
</font><div><div></div><div><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
scribus-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:scribus-dev@lists.scribus.info" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:scribus-dev@lists.scribus.info" target="_blank">scribus-dev@lists.scribus.info</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.scribus.info/mailman/listinfo/scribus-dev" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://lists.scribus.info/mailman/listinfo/scribus-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.scribus.info/mailman/listinfo/scribus-dev</a></div>
</div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>scribus-dev mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:scribus-dev@lists.scribus.info" target="_blank">scribus-dev@lists.scribus.info</a></span><br>
<span><a href="http://lists.scribus.info/mailman/listinfo/scribus-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.scribus.info/mailman/listinfo/scribus-dev</a></span><br></div></blockquote><br></div></div><div>A few thousand strings in the GUI is significantly less work than tens of HTML help files. Is is very unlikely we will find people so ready to translate documentation. </div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Maybe we will not find them. They will find us.</div><div><br></div><div>Unquestionably, there is a need for documentation.</div><div><br></div><div>And there are some countries where it’s possible to get some help for this kind of effort. Once we have Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, Russian... we cover quite a few potential users with those languages. More and more are then expected to join.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The question could be "can we make that easier so more translators can step in"?</div><div><br></div><div>More people could also be involved into the writing/updating process?</div><div><br></div>
<div>Only thoughts.</div><div><br></div><div>Louis</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div>
Craig</div></font></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
scribus-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:scribus-dev@lists.scribus.info">scribus-dev@lists.scribus.info</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.scribus.info/mailman/listinfo/scribus-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.scribus.info/mailman/listinfo/scribus-dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>