<div dir="ltr">2008/8/5 "Christoph Schäfer" <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:christoph-schaefer@gmx.de">christoph-schaefer@gmx.de</a>></span><br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">> Imagine the mess, now. Several layers into a master page... Where will this<br>
> lead us?! (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)<br>
><br>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">> Master Pages are in fact a locked layer. The containers (empty text and<br>
> image frames) are locked. The content is uneditable and locked. This works<br>
> perfectly and has a predictable behaviour, always. At least in Scribus.<br>
<br>
</div>I don't think this is correct. Currently, a layer outside the master page is a document layer, not a page layer. And why shouldn't users use layers in master pages? Who are we to tell them they shouldn't?</blockquote>
<div><br>I didn't say they shouldn't. People do just what they want! I only said it was not much in use among DTP pros (although I am sure you will find dozens who do, but that proves nothing, really). This of course is from my little experience.<br>
<br>Just for the story, Quark has come up with layers in version 5 (March 2002), which no-one bought. So the real appearance of layers in Quark was in version 6 (Sept. 2003). Until they made the step towards Mac OS X, Quark users remained for the vast majority with Quark 4.1 and still quite a few with Quark 3.2... This means that for over 15 years, millions of DTPers made their living without layers in their documents.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br><div class="Ih2E3d">
> ID has come up with a complicated sync and de-sync options, while<br>
> QXP has not solved the issue of the de-sync'ing...<br>
<br>
</div>Exactly what I said. I think we should have something that's easier to use.</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> We have this flexibiliy with stylesheets. We can edit endlessly any<br>
</div>> stylesheet. We can go from idea A to B to C and then get back to A or A'.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">> Maybe what we are looking for lies in stylesheets, not Master Pages?<br>
<br>
> When I say, use the Page > Copy as a workaround to editable Master Pages, I<br>
> know this won't solve an issue such as being able to reposition the text or<br>
> image frames *after* the pages are created, all at once in one go ? like it<br>
> was asked recently on the mailing list. This would be the purpose of a<br>
> Master Page in the old thinking. And it could well be the purpose of Frame<br>
> Stylesheets in the new thinking. We could even extend this to Page<br>
> Stylesheet... (is that feasible?)...<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>If you create a page style, formerly known as master page, what problem does that solve?</blockquote><div><br>The Master Page remains as it is, static. The Page Style has all the benefits of any other style. It can be edited and applied at will. People can apply it, and change their mind.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Also, if master pages were created like styles (ie in a dialog), this would severly limit their use.</blockquote>
<div><br>I am not following you. I see no limitation here.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Of course we could say that we're going to have page styles for the page itself and object styles for items on a page, but that would make quick changes impossible,</blockquote>
<div><br>Still not folllowing you. Say you have a styled text. You can still enrich that text, decide to apply another style or no style, etc. Just the same would happen in a page style.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
and quick changes are one of the most siginificant reasons for edtable items on master pages.</blockquote><div><br>Just how quick can one edit a paragraph style and how quick can one enrich a styled text?<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div class="Ih2E3d">
> We need a hammer *and* a screwdriver.<br>
<br>
</div>Like pages and layers? ;)</blockquote><div><br>Like static Master Pages and dynamic Page Styles.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> We also need to be able to manage the links between text frames.<br>
<br>
</div>What does this mean in the context of master pages? I don't think no one would permit linking text frames on master pages to text frames on real pages. That would be insane, IMHO.<br></blockquote><div><br>In its actual form, the only way to create a text frame that will be automatically linked to another on another page is to check the "automatic text frame" option at document creation. Then, when you go to Page > Insert, the new inserted pages will have a text frame and this frame will be linked to the one on the previous page, and to the one on the next. [And this works not that elegantly as I am testing for the purpose of the explanation — will have to file in some bug report.]<br>
<br>To be able to decide which frame is the one to be chained to when a number of pages are created, or to be able to decide which two frames or which three frames create a chain is what I call "being able to manage the links between text frames".<br>
<br>That way you could have 2 stories running side by side, for instance, in auto text frame. You could have as many as you want of those text frame chains. You could also set an entire text (for a bilingual book, for instance) with auto frame on and linked to odd pages, while the even pages get the EvenPage Style and get also an auto text frame. So, Spanish on odd pages and Russian on even pages.<br>
<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">> And we need to identify what is a styled frame and what is a regular frame.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">
> I guess a styled frame would be locked by default. One could edit the<br>
> content with no specific permission. To edit the position would require to<br>
> go to the Style Manager... Of course, at any time, just like for any<br>
> stylesheet, one could apply the "nostyle" attribute, thus setting this<br>
> particular frame free. And this idea could be developed, of course.<br>
<br>
</div>Yes, but keep in mind the number of mouse/keyboard operations. This sounds to me like a lot of clicking, which would defeat the idea of quick changes.</blockquote><div><br>Don't worry. I always keep in mind the mouse/keyboard operations. And I think so far that Page Style is a path to explore with lots of curiosity and interest.<br>
<br>Louis<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
Christoph<br></div></blockquote></div></div>