[scribus-dev] Editable Master Pages
christoph-schaefer at gmx.de
Sat Aug 9 17:20:06 CEST 2008
> Am 07.08.2008 um 15:56 schrieb Christoph Sch?fer:
> > OK, the quotations have become a bit extensive, so let me try to
> > start from scratch,
> Good idea. But getting the quotation mechanism to work in your mail
> program would also be great! :-)
Well, I'm currently using a web interface, and since I only receive the digest, this is a bit complicated for me at the moment :(
> > 1) Editing objects on master pages for one or more particular
> > regular pages.
> Changing MP objects locally on the regular page goes somewhat against
> the spirit of master pages, so this will be discussed some more I
> think. It might be worthwhile to have restrictions
> on how MP objects can be cahnged, eg. just filling in content instead
> of changing size / shape / position / color / whatever.
Yes, I think this a matter of the degrees. This needs some further discussion. Do you think Scribus should offer a more fine-grained approach, ie. with (customisable?) restrictions/permissions?
> > 2) Editing means just that: everything they could do to with an
> > object on a regular page. This includes deleting an item or moving
> > it to the regular page (which is the same as desynchronising).
> See above. Desynchronized MP objects can be a burden: quick changes
> sometimes hamper the possibility to edit the document in the long
> run. After all the main purpose of master pages is to give a set of
> regular pages a consistent look.
Hmm, desnychronised object would simply be regular objects that are no longer connected with their master page, no? Why would regular objects become a problem.
> > 3) Perhaps a user would want to add an item from a regular page to
> > a range of master pages or a static master page. I don't know why
> > someone would do this, but you never know what users come up with.
> That's a non-issue to me. If users want that, they can copy/paste the
> item in question. No need to ad special functionality.
Agreed. This was just a what-if question. Personally I don't see any need for it either.
> > There's nothing more we need to address.
> Uh, what about more than one master page for a regular page, or
> master pages for master pages? Ok, I agree, we don't have to address
> that *now* :-)
That was my whole point ;)
> > 2) Apply the changes locally but keep the item otherwise in sync
> > with the MP (there should be a "refresh mechanism" to override
> > local changes,
> as with object styles
What part of the object style would be related to the status on the master page? Do you mean a special option? Would there be a special object style for items on a master page? I think Louis' idea with setting the status via context menu would be easier and faster. Or maybe there should be both options?
> > but I think this could be done by applying the MP again in the Page
> > > Apply Master Page dialog).
> That's a can of worms once you allow local changes to MP objects...
Why? It would mean that all MP related operations on a particular page are void. It wouldn't be any different from applying another MP, as we currently do.
> > 3) Detach the item from the master page and make it a part of the
> > current page (and, perhaps, vice versa).
> not so nice IMHO
Well, both QXP and ID offer it, so there might be a user who will miss it ;)
> > Which one is preferred, the new style or the local change?
> Local changes, unless you use the broom.
How would you use a broom for pages and items ;)
> > There is no easy answer, and that's why I don't think the style
> > mechanism should be used. It just gets in the way for quick changes
> > and is probably overhead.
> That problem is independent of the style mechanism: once you have
> local changes / desynched MP objects, applying the same MP or another
> will raise that same question.
> Using the style mechanism might have a slight computational
> (unnoticable) overhead, but the advantage is that there's only one
> concept to understand (even if it's admittably complicated).
Yes, that's my major concern. Louis raised one of the core questions here, namely: the user has to know "where" he is. That's already a problem with a direct approach, but with styles I really think many people will be lost.
> The only way to avoid this problem is to disallow local changes to MP
> objects (except for filling in content)
But that's not everything we want, right?
> It would take four
> > mouse clicks to detach an object ort to delete it (1. switch to the
> > editing mode, 2. right-click, then 3. in the context menu Send to
> > Layer/Delete, 4. switch off editing mode). The same goes for
> > editing items: quickly switch to the editing mode for master pages,
> > edit the item, then decide if the changes will be applied to the
> > current page, to the master page itself or a range of pages that
> > use the master page. Aside from the editing itself, it'd take four
> > mouse clicks (1. enter editing mode with a click on a button, then
> > edit, 2. click the button again, which brings up a dialog to choose
> > from, 3. make your choice and then 4. OK). I can't think of
> > anything easier.
> Frankly I don't like that approach. I don't want to tie the MP
> concept with the layers concept.
Well, in a sense it already is, since one can use layers in master pages.
> And in MP edit mode, it should edit that MP only, not some regular
> pages to be specified when leaving edit mode.
Yes, that was just an idea I adopted from the "Apply Master Pages" feature. Think of it as an extra, nothing really important.
> In fact, once MPs are
> listed with regular pages, there wouldn't be a separate MP edit mode
> any more: the user selects a page - regular or master - and edits it.
> Internally Scribus might do something different, and some options
> might not be available for one kind of page or the other, but to the
> user it should not feel like mode switching.
Agreed. It's better to keep things apart.
> > The linking of text frames is IMNSHO totally unrelated to editable
> > master pages.
> Not totally unrelated. Once you have editable textframes on master
> pages, you have to find a way how to link them. Manually linking them
> after applying the page (and re-linking if you apply another
> masterpage) would be a nightmare.
Wouldn't that be more efficient with text frames on a regular page and your suggested "roles"? I really think the "role model", so to speak, has a lot of potential here, without the necessity to extend master pages. But if the price (coding time, usability etc.) is lower with your master pages, I'm all for it.
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